Transcript: The return-to-office debate is heating up

This is an audio transcript of the Working It podcast episode: ‘The return-to-office debate is heating up’

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Jeremy Myerson
Behind the scenes, you know, companies and company bosses may be making kind of loud noises about getting everyone back in the office and there’s a kind of macho CEO culture. But their HR departments are preparing for the future, and that is hybrid.

Andrew Hill
Hello, and welcome to Working It from the Financial Times. I’m Andrew Hill, standing in this week for Isabel Berwick. When it comes to staff working from home, some employers have had enough. Bank of America, IBM and UPS are the latest companies to force staff back to the office. In Bank of America’s case, it sent absent workers “letters of education” warning of disciplinary action if they didn’t show up in person. IBM has reportedly told managers to work on-site at least three days a week, and UPS is returning to a five-day-a-week in office policy. Of course, some staff, UPS drivers, for instance, have to turn up in person. But for others, all this raises the question: are companies pulling back from hybrid working?

The voice you heard at the top of the show was Jeremy Myerson. He’s one of the authors of the book Unworking and we’ll hear from him and his co-author later about how employers enforcing back-to-the-office mandates might be getting it all wrong. Before that, though, I’m going to speak to Kevin Ellis. Kevin is the UK head of PwC, which allows employees to work from home two or three days a week. How do the company’s managers feel about that?

Kevin Ellis
There’s different views on what’s best. But again, I think from my point of view, the most important thing is you’ve got to create an environment of trust but at the same time, you kind of have to be consistent in your guidance. So I think not moving from our two to three days means that where people do have different responsibilities at different stages of life, they can make it work. But again, where people have the option to come in most days, then they should do.

Andrew Hill
Does the carrot work better than the stick to bring people back to the office? Is it sort of nice offices, free coffee and so on which is going to bring more people back or is it the, you know, veiled threat that if you’re not in and you’re not meeting the guidelines that have been set out, there might be consequences?

Kevin Ellis
Making sure you’ve got the collaboration space and the office environment is definitely an important carrot. I wouldn’t put it as a stick, but I do think, if we can see people missing out and not coming into the office, because if you like, the team leaders see they’re not coming in two, three days a week, then there’s probably challenges for us as a business and challenges for them. If those staying at home are, for example, more of our female staff because of their childcare responsibilities in a way that’s divided up in their family units, that is not a long-term benefit for us as a business nor for them as individuals. So, again, I think there are times when it’s important in your teams you understand who isn’t coming in and whether there’s any way you can support them to avoid them missing out in their future careers and opportunities.

Andrew Hill
So there’s obviously a discussion about younger people, new entrants coming into PwC and other firms perhaps benefiting more from being onboarded in the office. What’s the sort of demographic breakdown?

Kevin Ellis
Because we take on so many first-time employees I think we do have a responsibility to them to give very clear guidance that they will benefit by being in the office, you know, virtually every day. And also for those that are coaching them and training them, they need to be in the office, too, because there’s no point in encouraging people to come into the office if the office is effectively like a morgue and you’re sat on your own in the corner, because you’re not gonna get anything from that. So again, the guidelines are very useful from that point of view.

But I am very open with our new cohorts when I join and I meet them that I would encourage you to be in the office as much as possible. I think that’s partly from a learning point of view, and we can’t talk about that with technology, but it’s also from an observation point. You know, I’ve learnt more in my career by watching others rather than reading books, and therefore being together in an office as a team teaches you a lot about kind of office culture, office behaviour, but also how you deal with situations.

And thirdly, there’s a mental health resilience point. Post-Covid, yeah, there is a kind of, a much higher level of mental health trauma and challenge in the workplace than ever been before, particularly amongst our younger staff. We all know about that. We read about it all the time. I think mates in the office and personal resilience by having your friends around you is a key part of that resilience against the challenges, mental health challenge.

Andrew Hill
Just on the question of technology, I know we’ve spoken about this, you and I before, but the advent of generative AI and the use of that, particularly in white collar professional services. I know you feel that might provide an additional incentive, particularly for junior members of staff, to come into the office. Just explain your reasoning there a little.

Kevin Ellis
Where technology, and particularly AI, is removing jobs and tasks, they’re often at the kind of more training-level tasks that probably majority of people do in their first few years in an organisation like ours. That would be the analysis, that would be the research, the first kind of, if you like, the first drafts of letters and documents. If you’re a business like mine, if AI replace those tasks, where are your future leaders and managers going to acquire first-year work skills from? So it is a business issue for us, and therefore the way we’re approaching it is we are saying that we want our people joining in their first year to get to their third year as fast as possible, effectively get to year three in year one, and the way we’re experimenting with that is effectively going back to the old days, if you like, of apprenticeships, where you are alongside your more senior colleagues in the office, sharing tasks, learning together and effectively replacing the gaps you’d have by those tasks being removed by technology and AI. But to do that, you’re gonna have to be alongside someone learning as you go, and therefore, by its very nature, that is gonna bring more people back into the office.

Andrew Hill
Yes. Last question, Kevin. I know you’re stepping down later this year. Does it fill you with dread, the idea of spending less time in the office? Or will you find ways to get into offices?

Kevin Ellis
I think I’ve gotta make sure that whatever I do in my life beyond PwC, I can’t cope with everyday being a Saturday. So I will be identifying things to ensure that I am leaving home in the morning to go somewhere, if not this office.

Andrew Hill
Kevin Ellis, thanks very much for chatting.

Kevin Ellis
Thank you very much.

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Andrew Hill
I thought what Kevin said about artificial intelligence was particularly interesting. If AI systems end up doing some of the more basic office tasks, junior employees might learn at a faster pace, but only if they are actually alongside more senior colleagues. Generative AI might bring workers back to the office, but are there other ways technology could make the idea of spending time in the workplace a little more appealing? Phillip Ross and Jeremy Myerson think so. Phillip is a futurist and an adviser on workplace change; Jeremy is professor emeritus at the Royal College of Art. They’re the authors of a book called Unworking, about how we should rethink the modern office. Phillip and Jeremy sat down with my colleague Rana Foroohar, the FT’s global business columnist and associate editor. She heard from Jeremy first.

Jeremy Myerson
Interesting things are going on at the moment and what we’re seeing is that there is no settlement around hybrid work. Companies are trying experiments, they’re imposing mandates, they’re doing all kinds of things, often only to reverse the decisions they’ve made within months or even weeks. The one thing that people can decide on, and there is consensus around, is that hybrid is difficult. Other than that, you know, companies are doing all kinds of different things, and there’s a lot of experiment, and they are in a process of unlearning and relearning. So the Unworking treatise of the book, this idea that you have to strip away all your basic assumptions about what work and workplace is, this is actually playing out in the different strategies that organisations are deploying.

Rana Foroohar
So, you know, it’s interesting. I just, landed in the UK a couple of days ago and have been in the office, and I already feel that more people are back in the office here than in New York. Obviously, it depends on different industries, different types of work, but painting with a broad brush, could you make any geographic trend lines in how the unworking phenomenon is taking place, not taking place in different regions? Phillip, what do you think?

Phillip Ross
You’re right. I mean, Midtown Manhattan is pretty desolate and London has got busier, but still, it tends to be only three days a week. You know, Mondays and Fridays are still very, very low occupancy. But the RTO debate really is varied. It varies by geography, culture, city versus urban, distances and costs of travelling. You know, people have to earn the commute. And I think by and large, we’ve seen people trying to force people back because the knee-jerk is they’re not quite sure what else to do. But we are seeing hybrid here to stay.

Rana Foroohar
Well, you know, I’m also wondering, just so many people of course moved during the pandemic. And I know in the US there’s been big moves, you know, out of state, towards the west, towards the south. My brother, who used to work in Arizona but now lives in South Dakota, he went remote during the pandemic, is being told by his employer, you know, you really need to get back in the office, which would then necessitate a pretty big life change. Do you think we’re gonna see a real square-off with employers and employees on this topic? Or do you think as labour markets become a little less tight, perhaps as we go into the next downturn, that we’re simply gonna go back to normal? Bosses are gonna say, get in and people are gonna hop to. Phillip, what do you think?

Phillip Ross
I think they have to question why they’re coming to an office. The knee-jerk is, we want you back. But if they commute in and then sit on Zoom calls at an open desk all day long with inferior technology to what they have at home and more interruptions — visual and so on — why are they there? You know, people are coming back, but the experience is pretty poor. And we’re seeing that even if a mandate is issued by a company, many of their clients are hybrid. So people would expect hybrid meetings. And therefore this idea of digital equity becomes a massive issue. Offices are not fit for purpose. The spaces are not right. The acoustics, the technology is not aligned. So they come in, they’re being forced to come back. But the experience is pretty grim. And I think one of the things we are seeing our clients do is shape experiences and design intentional experience and realign the technology as well.

Rana Foroohar
It really is a huge change. I mean, you know, Jeremy, I’m curious if you see across industries people responding differently. I know banking, for example. I mean, you hear, JPMorgan Chief Jamie Dimon saying, get back in here, you know, not just because we need you, but we need to save the City. Talk about what different industries are doing. Is there a spectrum here?

Jeremy Myerson
There is a spectrum. And some companies have decided that hybrid working is so difficult that they’ve gone remote-first. They’ve really gone to one extreme. Bringing people back, as Phillip said, to an office which hasn’t changed is a recipe for unrest. It’s a recipe for staff churn. And as we began to describe in the book, companies are repurposing their office assets. The big silver lining for people who develop offices is something called the flight to quality, where companies will still go to really modern prime locations with great sustainability criteria and so on.

We’re seeing a trend which we call flight to character. The flight to quality and premium space is not gonna be enough. Having a technically superior but not very exciting or fit-for-purpose environment — people, if they’re gonna come into the office, as Phillip says, they’re going to want an experience. And this is about character. So seeing a lot of organisations moving to heritage buildings, to older buildings that have got kind of some story attached. We’re seeing a lot of interior repurposing with much better lighting, air quality, much more kind of digital signage in the space, much more curation of events so that the office becomes a kind of event space where people come in, they interact with others. That’s a very high level of social interaction. So they’re getting something they wouldn’t get at home.

Rana Foroohar
Just thinking about that experiential angle a little bit more. You know, certainly, we’ve all seen the free meals and drinks, the social offerings, the perks you’re talking about. But, you know, there’s also been a bit of a pushback, at least in the States, there was an op-ed piece in the New York Times recently where someone was saying that she felt that employers were trying to offer up these sort of relatively cheap perks rather than, you know, offering flexibility or more pay. What do you think about that? You know, do you think that we’re gonna continue to see pushback or people are gonna want bigger and better perks in order to get in?

Jeremy Myerson
I think, Rana, you’re right. I mean, look, the free doughnuts and pizza is not really cutting it anymore, is it? I mean . . . 

Rana Foroohar
I wouldn’t turn down a free doughnut. Just saying. But, you know.

Jeremy Myerson
I think your point about industries was what was really interesting. Rather than a knee-jerk, one-size-fits-all, there’s a lot of data that’s available now to actually inform how people should come back, how they should work. For example, Microsoft has Viva, and within Viva Insights, you can see who’s collaborating with whom over email and calendars. You can see where network strength is weakening or where silos are emerging. So our advice for companies is not just to kind of do a headline-grabbing mandate, but to use data and insights to really plan the future of work and to be intentional, to curate it, almost see the offices off-site. And you’re right. I mean, you know, the City as well — tax revenues are down and population is down. How do other services survive?

Rana Foroohar
Couple of questions just on the career front in general and career progression. We all know face time is important. You know, even if you have a hybrid job, it’s important. To what extent do you think that these new ways of working are making it harder to progress? Are they changing the way you have to progress or the way you should be networking? Is there a younger-older divide there? What are you seeing? Jeremy, do you want to jump in on that one?

Jeremy Myerson
Yeah, I think there is a demographic divide between younger people who haven’t yet built their professional network and really wanna be around the place to do so, and older people who probably are living further out, have a longer commute, but have probably better living conditions in which to work from home. And, you know, it is an irony of senior bosses mandating their junior staff back to the office, but not deigning to appear themselves. But there are signs that companies in 2024 are gonna take things into their own hands and recognise we’ve had this shift.

We’re seeing a new job title emerge — chief hybrid officer — in the C-suite, really senior people who are in charge of hybrid and making it work. Well, also to your earlier point about are people gonna get fancier perks, we’re hearing talk of an in-person premium for the staff member who’s willing to go back to work.

On the other hand, we’re seeing trends in the UK. The flexible working bill will pass into law probably this spring, meaning employees can request flexible working arrangements from day one of their new jobs. So behind the scenes, you know, companies and company bosses may be making kind of loud noises about getting everyone back in the office and there’s a kind of macho CEO culture. But their HR departments are quietly preparing for the future, and that is hybrid.

Rana Foroohar
Fast forward five years from now, we walk into the office of the future. What’s gonna be different, Phillip?

Phillip Ross
The office becoming more like a members’ club. We talked in the book about the re-emergence of the guild — a place where you feel belonging, a place that’s driven by purpose, as Jeremy said, that has character and is driven by experience. We’ll be using apps and platforms which will nudge and suggest us, tell us when we should go in, because we know who else will be there and where we can sit because of the task we want to perform. So we think the office will be very different. It will be load-balanced each day. It will become a place that you want to be and not you’re forced to be.

Rana Foroohar
Fascinating. Jeremy, what do you think?

Jeremy Myerson
I think we’re not going to see the sterile business districts, the central business district, monocultural, every city defined by this cluster of office towers. I think we’re gonna see much more mixed-use and mixed-experience developments. So workplace is going to kind of permeate other areas of the city. People are talking now about biomorphism — using natural materials and forms, trying to make people healthier when they leave the workplace at the end of the day than when they started. And I think employers and offices and organisations will have to make a bigger contribution to public health. I think hybrid is just the beginning of a bridge into that future.

Rana Foroohar
It sounds like we’re going to a better place after all the disruption. And I will say I’m happy to be in the office today at Bracken House at the FT because I can go upstairs and get my free latte, which I can’t in my home office in New York. (Laughter) So it’s been lovely to chat with both of you, Phillip, Jeremy, happy hybrid working.

Jeremy Myerson
Thanks, Rana.

Phillip Ross
Thank you. Hope you get the doughnut, Rana.

Rana Foroohar
(Laughter) The coffee will do this morning, thank you. 

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Andrew Hill
Higher-tech spaces that cater to employee needs, that feel essential and add to workers’ experiences seem a better bet to me than free coffee or even free doughnuts.

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Thanks to Kevin Ellis, Phillip Ross, Jeremy Myerson and Rana Foroohar. This episode of Working It was produced by Mischa Frankl-Duval and mixed by Simon Panayi. The executive editor was Manuela Saragosa, and Cheryl Brumley is the FT’s global head of audio. I’m Andrew Hill, standing in for Isabel Berwick. She’ll be back in the hot seat in person next week. Thanks for listening.

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